Over the past few years I’ve stumbled over a few perfume questions or stories, and I’ve gathered them here for you to ponder, too. If you have any insight, I’d love to hear it.
Mystery #1: According to Michael Edwards’ Perfume Legends, the first version of Guy Laroche Fidji was created by Edmond Roudnitska, the legendary nose responsible for Rochas Femme, Frédéric Malle Le Parfum de Therese, and Christian Dior Diorissimo. L’Oréal, who manufactured the scent, decided at the last minute that Roudnitska’s formula “would have been perfect for a Dior couture perfume, but it was too aggressive for Fidji”, so they delayed production until another perfumer retooled Fidji to make it more commercial. Perfect for a Dior couture perfume? Sounds terrific! My question is, what the heck happened to the original formula, and what did it smell like?
Mystery #2: Since we’re talking about mysteries, what perfume would Nancy Drew have worn? How about Bess and George?
Mystery #3: Everywhere I look, it seems that one perfume or another is touted as a favorite of Catherine Deneuve. Her favorites are supposed to include Guerlain’s L’Heure Bleue, Chamade, and Nahema; Chanels No. 19 and 22 (she modeled for No. 5 ads, too, see above); many of the Frédéric Malles; and all the Jo Malones. Then there’s her own scent, Deneuve. What perfumes does she really wear? Wait a minute, I think I just answered my own question. Catherine Deneuve is one of us.
Mystery #4: In Pierre Balmain’s autobiography, My Years and Seasons, he says, “My friend, Germaine Cellier, had just invented a perfume for me which evoked best the kind of elegance of which I wanted to be the harbinger. I named it ‘Elysée 64/83’, my first telephone number.” (Cellier went on to create Balmain Jolie Madame and Vent Vert, too, as well as Robert Piguet Fracas and Bandit.) That’s the end of his talk of perfume. What did this “harbinger” of “the best kind of elegance” smell like? Did it have Cellier’s quirkiness and strong edges? I wish I knew.
Mystery #5: This is really a bundle of mysteries that need a crystal ball to answer. Will the old Diors ever be made with the quality and care that they once were? Will the Chanel Les Exclusifs ever come out in parfum? Will Lanvin ever re-release a respectful version of Scandal? Tell me, perfume swami.
Note: image via Parfum de Pub.
Every night, before falling asleep, I pray that Lanvin does not attempt the re-issue of Scandal. Better dead than mutilated to absolute unrecognize-ability a la Rumeur.
I think that the new Rumeur is a delicate and really pretty fragrance, but just that. I've never smelled the older one, but for me the name is just perfect for the juice now.
So true, but Lanvin did a great job with Arpege. Hope springs eternal…
I have a bottle of the vintage Rumeur (the EDT) and I can tell you that the new one bears no resemblance whatsoever to it. At all.
J, I've never smelled the original either, but I've heard the new Rumeur is a different scent altogether. Sometimes knowing the vintage versions is as much a curse as a privilege when you aren't wild about the new versions.
I have read umpteen articles where C. Deneuve says she wears fragrances by Serge Lutens: they change every time too. LOL!
Bela, that's what I've heard, although I've never smelled it. What was the old Rumeur like?
I read one article where she was trying to convince the interviewer to stop by the F. Malle boutique after the interview! Got to love her. I'd love to see her perfume collection.
Who is Catherine Deneuve ?
It's really sad to know that I'll never smell the original versions of great classics, such as Femme and Arpège. I just can't understand the reasons: why don't create a new perfume and leave the classic one just as it is?
Go to http://www.google.com and type “Catherine Deneuve”. In my
search engine, she would be listed under “goddess”
Femme was so amazing that I actually started wailing when, decades later I smelled the new version. Fidji was also lovely and I recall my aunt complaining when all her Fidji bottles were “obviously turned bad before I opened the bottle”. Perhaps they don't have access to the original ingredients. If they're counting on memory fading, it has been a dismal failure.
Femme is reasonably easy to get on ebay, but I've even heard that the last years of the vintage Femme were only a shadow of Femme in its original glory. *Sigh*
Sometimes the old formulas had ingredients that were really expensive, so they were reformulated to cut costs. Sometimes there are new synthetic ingredients that a perfumer thinks will better approximate the original accord, and sometimes a company just wants a scent it thinks is a”fresher” and “newer” version. I often dream about walking into a Parisian parfumerie in the 1950s and spending the day sniffing and touching the old bottles.
I've heard, too, that the later versions of the vintage Femme were weaker and not as true as the earlier versions of vintage Femme. I like the old and the new Femme, though, but the new Femme is definitely a love-it or hate-it scent.
Holy smokes! Go out and rent Belle de Jour. You can thank me later.
Mystery #2
Ahem — I couldn't resist tackling this one — as an actress with a day gig, I almost always muse about what perfume the characters I'm portraying would wear. I have to give two answers for this question: one for the 'vintage' Nancy Drew (and I've taken liberties with the vintage scents as most are post 30's) and a second if they were set in the present
Nancy – Vintage Jicky/Modern J'dore or Donna Karan Gold
Bess – Vintage Diorissimo or Joy/Modern Dolce & Gabbana Fragile or Tocca Touch
Goerge – Tweed for Vintage/ Modern Dolce & Gabbanna for Men
Sometimes, I want to cry, as when presented with this question. Catherine is a fab French actress/icon who is one of the world's most beautiful women AND personifies growing older gracefully. For her cutting edge side when she was a young actress, check out Belle de Jour. In her middle aged glory, Indochine and I can't remember but not that long ago she did an Oscar nominated film with Bjork. Sigh.
Yes, after my typing fingers got ahead of me, I do realize the Fragile is from Jean Paul G and not D & G… the dangers of posting after a 9 hour shift and Oscar Party combined.
I like Eight Women, too. It's hilarious, and all the women in it are terrific actresses.
Great choices! I love Jicky for vintage Nancy. Bess's choices are spot on. I could see George doing Guerlain Vetiver, too. For modern Nancy, though, I don't see the Donna Karan Gold as much, but no perfume comes immediately to mind for her. Maybe a L'Artisan?
I'm actually in a position to respond to Mystery N°4, because I own quite a hefty flacon of Elysée 6483, obtained for a pittance because no one knows it. But I've never gotten down to doing a serious analysis. No notes anywhere to get me started! Right now I'm wafting Bois des Iles on one wrist, Cuir de Russie in my cleavage and 31 rue Cambon on the other wrist so in no condition to make an assessment, but I'll try to post one soon…
I am burning up with curiousity! And jealousy! I can't wait to hear what you think of it. When I hear “elegance”, I often think of aldehydes, but I can't think of any of Cellier's that have the sort of aldehydes Chanel uses. And so many of Cellier's scents seem to kick off with a jolt of galbanum or a green, stemmy scent. Anyway, enjoy the Chanels, but let us know what you think of Elysee 64/83.
The old Rumeur is much stronger and darker — more like Jolie Madame, or the opening of the original Femme (which is almost masculine, at least to me)
Am trying to type w/ a casual attitude, but…O…M…G. You have Elysee 6483?! Please do let us know what it's like! Am incredibly curious.
My crystal ball is on the fritz. I think it fogged over in confusion when Matthew Williamson released an incense scent that is not the original one. However, while I also pray each night like M that Lanvin will not butcher Scandal in the same way it did my beloved Rumeur, I am also praying quite fervently for the new Chanel Exclusifs to come out in parfum form. I shall lose all faith in perfume deities if they don't.
I've got to get that ball cleared up because I truly want to know what happened to the original Fidji formula. Why on earth didn't they just sell it to Dior? It's like a dagger in my Dior worshipping heart to think of it being possibly poured down a drain at some point. The person who made that decision at L'Oreal deserves to languish for eternity in a Pink Sugar scented hell.
That makes sense to me. A “rumor”, after all, would be a rumbling, rough scent. Mere “gossip” would be light and fruity.
You see, C, you have us on the edge of our seats! Please tell us what the bottle looks like, too!
Yikes! A Pink Sugar scented hell! I hope I never get on your bad side!
Somewhere there must be a paper with the original, Roudnitska Fidji formula on it. It would be worth it to infiltrate L'Oreal to find it. Then we could trot it to the Osmotheque and beg someone to mix it up for us.
Exactly. Where is Nancy Drew when you need her? Or Emma Peel. This would be a perfect job for her and Steed.
Dear Angela,
Could I disappoint and soothe you at the same time? I had a flask of Elysée 6483, that was bought at ebay, in sealed/mint and perfect condition. The scent seemed to be not bright at all, like it didn't have anything in common with expressive works of Germaine Cellier. A few aldehydic and woody notes to be remembered. I have 2 versions: whether it is a big fiasco of the House, or it is very bad when it comes to storage.
Concerning Les Exclusifs in parfum concentration: this form might be available in the future as well. I interviewed Christopher Sheldrake in Chanel office in Paris in the beginning of February.
He gave me a hint that the release can happen. He also mentioned that according to Marketing department, there is a biggest sales market for Chanel extracts in Russia.
Best regards,
Galina
Galina, well, YOU are the perfume swami! Two mysteries solved.
“Disappoint and soothe” is the perfect way to express how I feel. If you'd said it was a fabulous, groundbreaking scent, I'd be heartbroken. Woody and aldeyhdic does sound elegant, anyway. I'm eager to hear what Carmencanada says, too.
As for the extrait versions of Les Exclusifs, I'm looking forward to them. I sure hope they don't sell them in ridiculously large bottles, like they do the EdTs. A quarter ounce would be perfect for me. Thanks for the information!
Yes, she could wear those boots that let her walk up the walls and the ceiling. Then, once they're back in Emma's flat, secret formula in hand, they can celebrate with saucer glasses of champagne.
I wonder what Emma Peel would have worn? Maybe Vent Vert.
Upon reading your post (thank you, it's clever as always) I put it on, the old one. The original versions of Scandal, Arpege and Rumeur are of my favourites.
The old Rumeur sounds and smells like classic perfume, it is neither a dessert or any kind of meals, nor any concept, modern, postmodern or postpostmodern:).
It is aldehydic (the same as in 22nd), floral-fruity and mossy. Dark, human and personal.
Galia, thank you for sharing the “extract” news. Marina
*Excellent* choice for Emma. I also think she might go for a leather scent like Cabochard, Diorling or Miss Balmain.
“Dark, human and personal” is a beautiful description. Thank you.
Yes! Leather would be perfect. I can imagine Miss Balmain, especially.
Great thread! I know little or nothing about the classics. I do know that the few vintage classics I've sampled have that 'dark' edge to them. What makes them dark? I get a motor oil note in Shalimar, a burnt rubber note in Jolie Madame parfum, for example. I'm not being critical, just trying to convey my impressions. As for Rumeur, I just happened to test the new version today and it smells very similar to NR For Her and Lovely, to my nose. Not sure which came first.
Er, she's had extensive cosmetic surgery.
I'm French so I've been aware of her for a very very long time. I remember discussing with my best friend (when we were both 16, back in the mid-'60s) whether CD was indeed beautiful. I said I didn't think she was (cold blondes leave me unmoved) and my opinion has never changed. I liked her sister Françoise Dorléac very much. She died in a car crash and I believe her disappearance enabled CD to become famous. Her sister was a much better actress than she ever was.
I think you've described it very well. 🙂
I know what you mean, it almost seems as if the general public were more tolerant of strangeness in perfume. I mean, other than a few niche companies, who would make Narcisse Noir today? I love the strangeness.
So interesting about her sister! I'll have to look her up.
One of the things I like about Deneuve is that she's willing to take risks in the roles she chooses. Although she's the classic blonde beauty, she's willing to take strange and edgy roles, even now.
I just looked up the Balmain scents in the Osmotheque scent directory, and neither Jolie Madame nor Miss Balmain are listed though Elysee is there, isn't that weird? I have a vintage bottle of JM Extrait and a vintage EDT of Miss Balmain I just got, and I swear that they are identical! Could Elysee 64.83 have been reformulated to become Jolie Madame, and again to become Miss Balmain? Sorry I added a mystery rather than elucidating one!
You don't think most of the SLs are strange? I'm wearing one of the strangest of all: Tubéreuse Criminelle.
I'm afraid I have to disagree: I don't think she can act *at all* (you have to hear her intonation in French to realize how 'false' they sound). There are/were some great French actresses (Jeanne Moreau, Simone Signoret, etc.) but she's not one of them. She's a 'star', that's completely different.
They're strange all right (and I love TC), and there are lots of other strange niche perfumes out there. But the thing about the vintage scents that are strange is that so many of them were mainstream! That's what surprises me.
Hmm, somehow I don't think so, although someone who knows these things better than I would have to say. I know that JM was a huge seller for Balmain–so much so that Balmain named a year's collection “Jolie Madame” after the perfume rather than the other way around. (Then Jolie Madame became shorthand for a particular look.) I've only smelled the new Miss Balmain, and I didn't get the violets from JM, but I could see how the perfumer might have leaned heavily on its popular “mother” perfume, JM. Now I'm longing to try vintage Miss Balmain, though….and Elysee 64/83, of course.
Oooh–I love this game! Name the scent of a character! When I think of what scent Nancy Drew would wear, I'd imagine some sort of heather/tweedy combo. I don't know if it was all those prep-school ensembles she was always flaunting that are swaying me, but she'd have to wear something crisp and stylish. If we are looking toward the 1940's-50's, it would likely be something like “Soir de Paris” or “Blue Waltz”–a teenager's version of a dangerous fragrance. “Chance”, “Gucci” or “Alien” would be her modern choice…although, “Alien” reminds me more of 1960's comic books and campy movies than mystery-solving.
Great choices! Nancy Drew seems practical, attractive, smart, and wholesome, but her own woman (and let's not forget her Titian hair!). Someone earlier suggested Jicky, which I think is brilliant. But I wonder if Hermes would be good, too. Maybe Eau des Merveilles? Does a girl who tap dances, speaks French, and knows Morse code deserve less?
You're right: I hadn't thought of that. It is possible, though, that only women who had money (and in those days money meant taste perhaps more than nowadays) wore perfume then.
Or maybe the older perfumes that endured were the more unusual ones, and the unchallenging, humdrum scents dropped off the market.
I think unusual is a different desciption altogether from strange, I doubt that the scents we are talking about were strange for the time, but probably a bit more “Dark, human and personal” as Oldge wonderfully said earlier in the conversation, than the fluffy feminine scents we can imagine as their counterparts.
I think that our idea of what is strange has changed immensely since the 40's and 50's, as there was no such thing as mainstream the way we are talking about it now. As a designer constantly looking at things the past for it's ingenuity and individuality, I'm constantly amazed at the capacity for invention and playfulness of everyday details, compared to objects of our time, except on the rarified levels of course, which would compare to Serge Lutens in perfume.
Such a good point. I'm a fervent vintage shopper and adore the stylish, but sometimes kind of wacky–and as you said, “playful”–fabric patterns from the 1940s and '50s. I wonder what changed? Maybe those times were closer to more difficult times, and emotions ran deeper? No focus groups? More things handmade and so more things reflecting an individual's personality?
I wonder, too, how unusual or strange or banal or ?? one of today's fruity floral releases would have been to a woman in 1948?
Get thee to Ebay! There is a constand supply of vintage Jolie Madame for instance, and the others too I'm sure!
Marketing and global style are really what have changed scent the most, especially in this country. Having just spent several months in France, I am happy to report that individual style still lives, and playfulness in color and accessories is very popular. And I love it when I'm behind a woman on a bus in Paris wearing Caron or Serge Lutens, quite a rarity here! Perhaps the Fruity Floral would be a revelation to our vintage femme, thankfully probably not to these gals I posted on my blog, I've been dying to use this Ginger Rogers pic! http://qwendy.typepad.com/shoescakeperfume/2007/02/perfume_riffs_s.html
Love Ginger's dress! I saw a dress a few days ago from the early 1950s, black with a close torse and full skirt, made of fabric printed with tiny bags of popcorn, with bits of popcorn here and there. From a distance it looked like an abstract floral. The perfect movie date dress–for a size 2, that is, not for me *sigh*.
You know, even a fruity-floral can have some heart if it's done properly. While not necessarily a preference of many, Creed's “Spring Flower” was actually a lovely take on the fruity-floral; crisp but rich with synthetic animalic notes woven throughout. While not everyone's cup of tea, it stands as an example of a well balanced fruity-floral.
The biggest problem with the new mass releases is how quick they come to market before refining themselves. Sort of like cars released too early and reworked over a period of time, new fragrance releases are quick to catch current trends, with “reinventions” of the same scents over a period of time. It's a sad departure from artistic masterpieces that exist as themselves; polished, unique and presentable.
I'm not as hard on the American aesthetic, although I think American designers excell in clean, unfussy lines. It seems to me that of all places for a fruity-floral to be done well, it should be in America. Citrus groves, prairie fields, bay roses, clay earth and seaside herb farms all point to the character of a regional signature. Unfortunately, many seem up to taking but not tweaking such a challenge.
Was this even on the post subject? Hahaha…
Well put! I love your list of regional, clean scents. This deserves its own post. Thanks.
What an optimistic yet realistic post, nlb (nice moniker!) Heart and Soul is more to the point and the marketing concerns you cite force contemporary perfumes to have little of either — it is a contemporary conundrum which seems to affect the French perfumes less, don't you think? And Linear American vs Complex European is one of my favorite subjects, perhaps Angela wants to pick up this subject, as I certainly have been intending to on my blog!
Hi QWendy!
Thanks for the name acknowledgement–it was sort of a quirky deal :).
I do agree with you, in that American brands have been quick to jump on the plasticy-fruity-floral freight train; although, I've been a little dissapointed in houses like “Guerlain”, lately. Some of their new releases are lovely, but definately aimed toward a wide audience.
definitely, not definately…
Hi NLB! You know, I think Guerlain cannily covers all the bases with offerings like Rose Barbare AND Insolent — perhaps much like the perfume houses AngelaS cited way back in this conversation, whose darker scents we now know and love but who were probably creating their versions of “fruity florals” for the masses too. Of course their mass appeal scents were more Femme and less like Champs Elysees, but darn it, times have changed!
QWendy-
Here, here. I admit that “Insolence” was an interesting release and while unique from Guerlain's earlier stuff, it remains a distinct fruity-floral blend. Notes of violet, iris and tonka-bean lend a velvety appeal that is unusual for its type. I concede the superiority of the new European releases to you, but I remain dissapointed in American designers'/houses' lack of interest in such a golden opportunity! If fruity-florals are so popular here, than some rare fruity-floral masterpieces should be released as a result.
Gosh, I hate to be such a snob, but I have very little confidence in American ability to create visionary products in the fields of perfume and/or fashion, not since the 70's anyway! The ideas you have put forth in this conversation are worlds ahead of those espoused by the designers who are behind their own perfumes. Though the new Tom Ford offerings sound pretty interesting, perhaps American in their seeming audacity (only the sniff will tell), but with a rather French style of composition, no? Are you in the Pacific timezone?
Dear all,
do you have an idea if and how I could get the Balmain Elysées 64-83?
Thanks a lot,
Thomas
I've no idea, sorry!