And the raw materials Caroline used are irrelevant. The scent is the scent. If you need to know what's in it, "You" is probably not for you.1
That's Chandler Burr, who is familiar to perfumistas as the author of Emperor of Scent and The Perfect Scent, as the New York Times' perfume critic from 2006 through 2010, and as a "curator of olfactory art". The "Caroline" is perfumer Caroline Sabas. The "You" is You or Someone Like You, Burr's new fragrance under the auspices of French niche line Etat Libre d'Orange, and named for Burr's first novel. Unbeknownst to Burr, Etat Libre d'Orange did post a few of the fragrance notes online (rose, mint, herbs), but they were removed shortly after, and I can vouch for the fact that they were not all that helpful.
And indeed, that's often how it is with fragrance notes. I've blathered on about that before so won't belabor the point here; suffice it to say that two fragrances with those same notes — rose, mint, herbs — might be entirely different animals. Burr elaborates in an interview:
Using notes is an incredibly impoverished way of “understanding what a scent smells like." It is the equivalent of understanding a painting by...
Q: By saying it has lots of reds and blues?
Exactly. Or what a musical work sounds like by saying "D minor." It doesn’t tell you anything about the work. Thom Yorke can write in D minor. And so can Beethoven. And you will have two completely different works of art.2
The "works of art" here is key to understanding his approach, and to his quarrel with the ways in which brands, consumers and the media approach the subject of perfume. If you will bear with me, here is one more:
Unfortunately most editors at the 'beauty books' demand mind-blowingly superficial writing. They send their people on canned, prefabricated press trips paid for by the brands to visit the same fields of roses that were shown to them the previous year. They do pieces on 'scent wardrobing' as if it had never been done before when actually it's the 400th rehash. They list 'notes of jasmine, cocoa butter, nougat, and fresh tulip' and crap like that and think they're writing about perfume. The only way to talk intelligently about a work of art is as a whole and contextualized in schools, aesthetic styles, and technical mastery or lack thereof.3
So what does all that mean for me, the lowly perfumer blogger, dutifully repeating long streams of fantasy notes, day after day, and trying to describe the finished product to her readers? Well, nothing much. To be clear, I have no quarrel whatsoever with Burr. I have found his books entertaining and helpful, and the same goes for his reviews in the Times. He says perfume is an art, and I am sure some perfumers would agree with him, although many others are on record as saying no, perfumery is a craft. Perfumistas sometimes get into heated debates on the matter, but the outcome is not really of much interest to me.4 Whatever perfume might be, I am a consumer and a hobbyist, nothing more. I don't write for the Times, I write for other people like me: my tribe, if you will. I don't go on prefabricated press trips, and I pay for my own perfumes. What I want, similar perhaps to the decorator who asks if the Koons will match the color of the sofa, is to find perfumes I might like or possibly want to purchase. Then, I want to enjoy them before they turn to vinegar. And I want to do all that without going bankrupt. I "curate" my own collection based on my own tastes and my budget, and while my tastes are hopefully at least somewhat informed, I don't buy fragrances based on technical mastery. I buy fragrances that make me happy.
The problem for a hobbyist, as I see it, is not so much art vs craft, or aesthetic styles and contextualizing in schools, although in practical terms, it does help you navigate the fragrance counters if you know some basics: the difference between a floral and an oriental, say, or the lineage connecting Lancôme La Vie Est Belle to Thierry Mugler Angel. But the monster problem facing the hobbyist is what to smell when you can't smell everything, and really, you can't, not when 50 new fragrances are added to the pile every week. You need a way to make sensible choices. I want Allure to tell me "jasmine, cocoa butter, nougat, and fresh tulip", and if Allure would just add "you won't notice the jasmine, this is a sugary gourmand similar to X but not as well done, and it costs too much plus the whole thing disappears before you've finished your tea, so do try Y instead" then there's a good chance I never would have started blogging at all.
Burr's Untitled series, which repackaged existing fragrances in plain glass bottles (no branding, no names, no notes) was fantastically cheeky, and even Women's Wear Daily has gotten into the act, with a regular "Smell Test" feature presenting a panel of judges with an unmarked sample vial. I am all for it, in theory. Ideally, we'd all smell everything "blind", with no preconceptions, and if the fragrance industry ever goes back to 50 or 100 or 200 fragrances a year — not likely — I would sign up to do all my testing from lab bottles. But to help me decide which of the 2500 new releases for 2017 I might want to smell? Thanks, but no. Give me branding, packaging, notes, prices, and I wouldn't mind knowing who holds the license and the name of the perfumer. I'll even read your wacky stream-of-consciousness backstory.
Which brings me back to You or Someone Like You. Is it a work of art? I have no idea. Did I like it? Yes. It's a slightly offbeat but easy-to-wear green floral, with the emphasis on the green more than the floral. It smells dewy / watery but not conventionally aquatic, and not at all watered down: it's almost chewy in the top notes. While it does not smell exactly like anything you will find outdoors, it has a bright, casual, summer-y, "manufactured nature" aura that's a perfect fit with the novel's Southern California setting. It's definitely minty, but the rose probably won't come to mind unbidden, and the mint is only a part of the story.5 The base is a pale woody musk, mostly clean. If you want to know what else is in it, you'll have to turn to the excellent site Scent and Chemistry, where they apparently think the raw materials are very relevant indeed:
This is where Sabas' perfume sets in by painting the exotic but odorless palm trees in the olfactory picture of green banana leaves with Liffarome galore, of course with large open grass areas in the background represented by cis-3-hexenol and derivatives. [...] Likewise there is a minty contrast to the banana leaves; yet, where it is minty–menthol in 'Eau Radieuse' it is minty-eucalyptus in 'You', natural spearmint and carvone. What really sets 'You' apart though is the intense tingling effect of shiso leaves that smells like an overdose of Shisolia, like some 0.2% or 0.3% of it even. Shisolia turns the top into a densely green, vibrant but impenetrable exotic jungle...6
That analysis (and there's much more, do follow the link), obviously, is not geared towards casual consumers. I suspect that some perfumistas might likewise find it information overload, although they'd surely sit up and take notice at the conclusion that You or Someone Like You is "the most interesting and beautiful perfume of 2017 so far".7
Verdict: I won't quibble with "the most interesting and beautiful perfume of 2017 so far" mostly because offhand, I can't even think of what the competition would be. Possibly, I've already managed to miss the best new fragrances of 2017? I don't think anything has gone on my buy list yet, and while I am impressed with You or Someone Like You (and it doesn't hurt that the little 30 ml cube is cute and reasonably priced) I did not get that dopamine rush that foreshadows the laying out of cash. In the end, that's really all I care about.
Anyway, do try it, or do comment if you already have. (And look for a full bottle giveaway next week.)
You or Someone Like You could easily be worn by anybody of any gender. The lasting power is good but it does get very soft after a couple hours.
Etat Libre d’Orange You or Someone Like You is available in 30 ($52), 50 ($90) or 100 ($149) ml Eau de Parfum. For buying information, see the listing for Etat Libre d'Orange under Perfume Houses. Update: there is also a 7.5 ml travel spray for $25.
1. From the video for the fragrance.
2. Via A Fragrance Critic on the Problem With Perfume at New York Mag.
3. Via Meet Chandler Burr, the World's Foremost Fragrance Expert at Racked.
4. But, to play devil's advocate here, what often occurs to me is that perfumers at the big fragrance & flavor companies make the scents for everything. If perfume is art, are shower gels art? What about air fresheners, and the scents used for mascara and skin creams and laundry detergents? The line between Tide and Clean Fresh Laundry (yes, that's a personal fragrance) strikes me as awfully thin. Or are perfumes only art if they meet additional criteria?
5. If you want a minty rose, you could try Les Parfums de Rosine Diabolo Rose, but be warned, it's far daintier than the name would imply. If you know of other minty roses, do comment.
6. Via Scent and Chemistry at Facebook.
7. Ibid.
This is an interesting review and it brings up a lot of thoughts for me about the nature of art and the nature of perfume. I love the ending questions in the 4th footnote-is shower gel ‘art’? We’ll probably never know!
I have been looking for a minty rose so I will check out the Diablo Rose, and I’m following this in hopes of other minty rose suggestions. Great post, Robin!
Have you tried CdG Grace by Grace Coddington? I liked the combo of mint and rose here. It’s a very light, but pleasant fragrance.
Lush Rose Jam should be in a museum 🙂
I know there must be other minty roses. Probably you could also layer Herba Fresca with a sheer rose…
I concur regarding Rose Jam.
Bois de Jasmin had a great post a few years ago about how difficult it can be to translate a fragrance into soap form, which inclines me to think that shower gels and lotions should indeed be able to attain art status!
IIRC, Jean-Claude Ellena talks about this quite a bit in one of Chandler Burr’s books – The Perfect Scent? Just to bring things full circle(ish) 😉
God forbid the peasants should dare to want to know what the notes are in a perfume.
Your clothes are magnificent, Emperor Burr. I hope you’ve remembered your sunscreen.
Ouch!
But really I don’t think his stance is elitist, is it?
It reeks of elitism to me; if you are the sort of unwoke bumpkin who likes to know completely irrelevant things like the , ya know, the notes of a fragrance, then this perfume isn’t for the likes of you, or any of your gauche friends.
Named in honor of a novel set in possibly the most vacuous, superficial, morally bankrupt city on the the planet.
The irony is exquisite, and unintended, I’m sure.
Interesting. It did not strike me that way, but perhaps you are right.
I saw it as more as a kind of defense growing out of a conviction about the importance of perfume as art, rather than a snub to the consumer.
I am more likely to be wrong than you!
Oh, I’m sure our chances are equal 🙂
Ha! I’m from LA and like it and we’re not all superficial and vacuous so them’s fightin’ words ???? Anyway, Las Vegas might hold that title.
I was born at California hospital on Hope Street, and raised in Santa Monica! But I apologize; I let my opinions get the better of my manners.
Vegas is meant to be superficial, to me that’s the big difference!
I’m not really offended. I’ve done my fair share of hating. Hollywood culture unfortunately gets the loudest coverage but that wasn’t my crowd or culture. I’m second gen Angeleno. My mother grew up in Boyle Heights in the 30s-40s. I happen to be super proud of LA/CA these days. NYC has it’s fair share of vacuousness/superficiality . It’s just much dirtier here so it’s easier not to see it.
I agree, the statement comes off as a tad elitist and more than a bit smarmy, yet I agree with Mr. Burr to a certain extent. However I like to read the notes because it creates and provides context for the perfume, allowing me to imagine the scent in my mind before I try it. Hey! I’d hate to be surprised by something I HATE, and the notes provide a olfactif map if you will.
Yes, I’m with you on the elitism. I’m quite relieved that I don’t care for YOSLY, because he sounds like a butt. If I ever get around to reading his books, I’ll feel relieved if I don’t like those, too.
YES to this entire comment, including the irritating, twee, whitebread literature that inspired (hopefully only) the name.
Ostentatiously going both label- and note-free: a combination of “don’t worry your pretty little head about it” and an intellectually and artistically dishonest manner of pre-emptively protecting oneself from critics and informed consumers.
I am not a babby and this is not a blind wine tasting. I’m more than capable of judging a fragrance on its merits, a perfumer on her aptitude, without being strong-armed into some tissue-thin excuse for ‘objectivity’ because a perfumer is too timid to stand behind their work without a sad, unlabelled bottle Gotcha! I want to know what they used and what they were aiming for. At my age, just sniffing for pleasure is not adventure enough anymore. I’ve trained my own nose sufficiently by now that I don’t need or want the hand-holding.
Just, dudes, please stop trying to Disrupt perfume. You’re only allowed, in my book, the shirk the rules once you’ve proven yourself capable of understanding and following them in the first place. Shortcuts are often interesting, but they’re very rarely sublime.
Haha!
I kind of see it the other way around: it’s perfumistas and enthusiasts who read lists of notes, not casual consumers. Most perfume wearers could probably not tell you which notes they like, or name one of the notes in their favorite perfume.
I think what he might be getting at is that we don’t have a language for scent, and that lists of notes are primarily published for PR purposes. If scent were more primary in our culture, and we had a more developed and extensive vocabulary for describing what we smell and the emotions they evoke, lists of notes wouldn’t be necessary.
Of course, some people (NST staff included) are very skilled at writing about perfume. But in fashion lit, where most perfume PR takes place, what’s published is just a rehash of notes and whatever the house wants consumers to think about its latest release.
I do wish more perfumers were given the opportunity to write about their creations (the way JCE did in later years) but it’s also entirely possible they’d not have much to say about a lot of the work they do.
Great comment!
That was a great read. Thank you, Robin! I’m looking forward to my decant.
Hope you will like it! I do think it’s a great scent.
Oh, I love this post. Two thoughts, in addition to Robin’s many excellent ones:
1) My position on whether perfume is art is the same as for any consumer product: sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn’t. The presence or absence of a notes list certainly isn’t the deciding factor, and I am honestly very surprised that any company would tell customers “[it’s] probably not for you” in their official marketing in the current retail climate.
2) Burr’s description of the “mindblowingly superficial” behind-the-scenes of beauty writing strikes me as somewhat out of date. The purse strings are pretty tight for both brands and media these days. A hefty percentage of journalists are freelance. Maybe ten companies still fly anyone out on “canned, pre-fabricated” rose field press junkets. You’re lucky if the event’s open bar! I’m not saying that beauty writing at traditional publications is necessarily getting better, but it’s not the same-old, same-old anymore, either. That accusation rang fairly hollow to me.
ANYWAY, I found You Or Someone Like You seriously enjoyable. Very mojito-y.
1. I am uncomfortable with that though — does that mean painting is only art if the painting is good?
2. True, but that’s exactly why those 10 companies dominate the coverage in the big beauty magazines. If you go here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhDd-GgrgEk
That is the Hermes launch for the last 2 colognes. Start at about 2 1/2 minutes in, watch lunch being served.
Now, of course, the big mags don’t dominate coverage the way they used to, so you’re right things are changing, but from my perspective, it’s not *all* changing in a good way. Bloggers now attend events like that and go write the same dumb glowing stuff you see in Vogue.
Do people still buy/read beauty magazines? (Not trying to sound like a jerk here…) I mean the actual magazines…not visiting Allure and Vogue’s websites but the hard copies. I’m sure I can google to find the sales trend for beauty magazines too. They just seem fairly obsolete to me.
Seems like beauty blogs are the real-time magazines of today…
I buy them in airports 🙂 and leave them behind when I’m done.
Even if they don’t buy the mags, they read them online, but I do think it’s true that they no longer have any sort of monopoly on the market — but I have to say that the fragrance coverage on beauty blogs is not very different from the fragrance coverage in magazines.
I flip through them while getting a pedicure.
I still buy magazine’s. On the rare occasion, I have quiet in my house, I read them.
I read them at the hair salon while I’m waiting for my highlights to process, or when they arrive unbidden in my mailbox (as a result of buying fragrance online, I think)! A hard copy of Allure or InStyle is the sort of thing I’d purchase if I felt I were coming down with a cold and likely to spend the next couple of days in bed.
OH MY GOD THAT LUNCH
Yeah! It always surprises me when these events end up online, and they often do, sometimes posted by the brands themselves. It does not seem like good PR to me to point out that you had to spend a fortune to wine & dine the press in order to get your glowing coverage.
[it’s] probably not for you”
Feels very much like an ego stroke (or a neg designed to get you to buy in order to prove your hip bona fides).
“I buy fragrances that make me happy.”
Best line, ever!
🙂
Well, this afternoon is heaven! Cup of tea, blistering thunderstorm, and a wonderful review with note digression! Loved it!! 🙂
(Note to Kevin: You miss your Va. thunderstorms in Seattle, and when I lived in Va. I missed these Ky. thunderstorms!)
Now I get why Burr said what he did about notes. But your example of an Allure magazine note listing and what they *don’t* provide is exactly why I love this site so much – perfumes *are* reviewed and described as a whole, aesthetic styles discussed, along with the perfumer’s technical mastery or lack thereof. All this gives us readers a fairly clear picture of what to expect and which ones go on our “to buy” list.
Ok, I must know, how are thunderstorms in KY different from thunderstorms in VA? I might have missed something important about thunderstorms!
I don’t think I’ve ever discussed aesthetic styles in the way Burr means — he is talking about relating perfume to larger trends in art and culture, so that L’Interdit is part of the expressionist movement, and Angel is surrealism, etc and etc. What you’ll get here is that La Vie is “Angel with Botox and a blow-out”, which is not the same thing 😉
Kevin began his Foin Fraichement Coupe review talking about the great thunderstorm they had just had in Seattle and how he missed the thunderstorms from his youth in Va. It was pretty funny, actually. As I read it though I thought, “Huh! And I missed the Ky. thunderstorms when I lived in Va.!” I lived about an hour west of D. C. (over the mountain as they say there) and storms here are much more violent than they were there.
I prefer the aesthetic styles discussed here. 😉 Much more helpful (and entertaining).
We seem to have more violent storms here in PA than we did in DC, or maybe that’s just because I live on top of a hill now and it seems that way?
In college I spent a summer working for a civil liberties org in Prestonsburg KY. I LOOOOOVED the thunderstorms. Never experienced anything like them elsewhere.
Gosh. I don’t know if I could stand it, but then my house has already been hit by lightning twice.
Kevin must have been writing about the recent ones that occurred under warm weather conditions. That never happens here. Rain=cold and cold=rain, so storms and heat rarely converge.
Oh! Has Burr written a book (or other) “relating perfume to larger trends in art and culture?” anyone else? Because I’ve been looking for exactly that book (or books) for years. I’ve bought and read a lot, but have yet to come across any writing that treats perfume in the context of social/political/cultural/popular culture movements, except in the most general sense.
I think this is it:
http://www.chandlerburr.com/ArtOfScentCatalog.htm
Thanks for the link. I’d love to read the articles, but not for the asking price. It doesn’t look like they’ve been published elsewhere.
I smell catnip in the top notes. That’s what my nose smells, so that’s how I describe it! 🙂
I will gladly buy a 30ml bottle at some point….I like it!
I knew ELDO was doing 30 ml, but somehow didn’t focus on the price. It’s really not bad — started me thinking about Like This & Fils de Dieu right away.
Those little baby bottles are the cutest thing ever. I have a Papa Bear (100 ml) Fils de Dieu and 2 (30 ml) Baby Bears (Bijoux Romantique and Putain.) My collection needs a Mama Bear (50 ml)!
I am no plant expert, but I think catnip is in the mint family!
It definitely is.
I tried it during my trip to Milan for Esxence.
It was O.K. Just O.K.
It wasn’t bad but it wasn’t good either.
I could smell mint and basil immediately.
It’s a crowd-pleaser which is not usual approach for ELdO.
I’ll pass on taking any actions upon this fragrance.
Sounds like I liked it more than you did! But it’s hardly ELDO’s first crowd pleaser, is it? They just did a cologne, and in general, most of their fragrances have struck me as far less “confrontational” than the ad copy.
There’s also Remarkable People, which with a smell of champagne also seems to be easier to love than any other of their fragrances. So said the representative I met at their stand.
Suspect they’re just marketing the cool name and lovely blue-eye bottle, and it’s an extra gimmick not to say the notes. I do really love the bottle!
Excellent point about the marketing…
I would only say it’s not a gimmick on the part of ELDO because it would appear that they posted notes against Burr’s wishes (?)
You hit the nail on the head for me with, “But the monster problem facing the hobbyist is what to smell when you can’t smell everything, and really, you can’t, not when 50 new fragrances are added to the pile every week. You need a way to make sensible choices.”
There is SO much out there that it is impossible to smell it all and I find reviews, and particularly blogs such as this, to be very helpful-
and that includes listing notes. There are just some notes that I enjoy more than others and it helps me narrow down the list of what to try. I do not base my sniffing completely on notes because I have smelled enough at this point to know I am often surprised I liked something I didn’t imagine I would. But it certainly helps me.
That being said, I do look forward to trying this one.
I couldn’t agree more!
It also helps to have help narrowing down choices of which samples to purchase if you’re like me and don’t have access to stores with niche brands. I can only sniff in person if it is at Sephora or Macy’s/Nordstrom.
Frankly, I already felt that way when I started blogging, and back then, there were less than 500 a year.
I understand Burr’s point — there are many fragrances which have the same list of dominant notes, but the overall perfumes smell quite different — but I agree more with Robin’s point, that there are simply too many fragrances for anyone to sniff. Some hints would help, so that we can get an idea of what might be worthy of investigation. I am quite sure that his approach will not take hold in the perfume industry…. or any other, for that matter. Imagine the poor consumer walking up to a perfume counter lined with dozens of identical bottles with unhelpful names and no idea where to start. Ooops, I think I just described Le Labo…. 😉
In this case, your note list tells me that I am not likely to enjoy this one — mint and shiso are not on my ‘ooooh’ list — so I don’t feel the need to rush out and try. See, the note list is helpful 🙂
LOL at Le Labo! Plus, the extra obfuscation by naming your perfumes after notes that might or might not be noticeable….
Robin, thank you for an interesting, thought-provoking review. Your nuanced discussion puts me to shame: I just read the Chandler Burr comments and mentally dismissed it as “pretentious” and him, similarly. I categorised it all as a form of elitist droning, and stopped thinking about it. You have restored reason to the issue, and I really appreciate your thoughts. I haven’t changed my mind about CB, but it has made me think about why I reacted that way.
I admit I am annoyed by some brands that don’t want to share any information at all — Nasomatto comes to mind.
Great post, and I’m in love with that 30 ml bottle. I have quite a soft spot for ELdO, mostly I think because they created Rien.
I don’t know if perfume is an art, and I refuse to be really bothered by that question actually. Who cares at the end of the day. It’s there to be enjoyed.
Thank you, glad there is someone else who shares my “whatever” attitude 🙂
Another whatever-er here. And great post, Robin!
Thanks Dusan!
Briefly, there are things niche does well, but most niche scents don’t this this, in my experience (that is, certain notes are emphasized, whereas in designers it’s not unusual to hardly be able to smell them, an example being to compare Rebelle, which isn’t bad at all, to Cheat Day; many of the same notes but CD just blows you away with the gourmand notes’ strength!).
As to notes more generally, with designers and the “lesser” scents that are usually similar to a well-known designer scent, the notes and the reviews are usually good enough for me, in terms of blind buys, but I generally wait until the prices come way down anyway. Usually, you can tell if the scent lists sandalwood, patchouli, and leather in the base , for instance, whether that is going to be a homeopathic dose or “the real deal” by the reviews and sometimes other factors, such as if it seems to be similar to another scent (the bottle design, the color of the liquid, the description, and at Fragrantica, if more than a few people chose one or more scents that it supposedly smells like). And with “masculines” it’s not uncommon for lavender or “fougere” not to be listed as a note but to be noticeable, which is why I look for terms like soapy or barbershop in the reviews. After a while you start to think almost like a detective! LOL. Niche has become a problem for me, in terms of mostly blind swapping, because some seem to think that a whole lot of iso e super make their creations smell niche-ish, but I just can’t wear those types of scents. And I wear “super cheapos” at least as often as niche, the reason being I really like them! The technology at the moment seems to allow great scents to be marketed for next to nothing, the only issue often being the top notes are light or weird, but not being a “top notes person,” that’s not an issue for me.
I know just what you mean about thinking like a detective!
It seems to be that Burr really undervalues the role the perfumer (chemist?) Caroline Sabas plays in creating his perfume. Do the people actually making the perfumes think that using or describing notes (molecules) is an impoverished way of understanding scent? Having read a couple of perfume books it seems to me that perfumers talk about notes al the time.
Aren’t the materials used in creating art or craft intrinsic to the final product, and doesn’t an understanding of those materials add to the finished work?
Most consumers are curious about what they buy. If I am buying a jersey i want to know if it is cotton, wool, or acrylic. Knowing those things help me make a decision but also help me to understand and make sense of the product.
Perfume can be obscure (just as some art is obscure ) and reading about it can help me make sense and understand it. This is not the same as dumbing down the experience but rather, it invites me to join the conversation.
Kanuka, you are spot on with the fabric comparison. If I can’t tell what something is by feel, I always look at the label.
It kind of creates a sense of empowerment. Even if i don’t understand the finer points, I want to know…if i was being treated for an illness i don’t want the doctor to give me a whole lot of unlabeled drugs saying ‘trust me’. I want to know what i am being handed even when the names mean nothing to me. I would find the withholding of that information as a sign of arrogance…or contempt.
Funny, I thought of fabric descriptions too. I buy lots of clothing on-line, but there’s so much you can’t tell from a photo. The designer may mostly care about the appearance, but I definitely want to know what type of fabric it is. There are fabrics that I just won’t buy, and it’s no good for the shop or for me if I buy something that has to be returned because of its ‘ingredients’.
BUT — the thing about the fabric is that you know what cotton is, and you know what wool is, but you don’t know what “rose” is when you see it in a list of notes. There aren’t any companies, really, that will tell you specifically what aromachemicals are used for each “note”. If the list says “rose, jasmine, ylang” you still don’t know what’s in the scent — all real flowers, some real flowers and some synthetic, all synthetic? And there’s more than one way to build a synthetic rose. So you can figure out that you prefer cotton clothing, but you have no way of knowing, really, if you like “rose” — it isn’t the same “rose” every time.
Yes, exactly!
Yes, but if you don’t like rose or ylang you’ll at least not have wasted your time or money trying it.
And just to make your point, (and Mr. Burr’s!) how many times have I blind bought something based solely on notes and/or reviews, convinced it would be a holy grail, and been wildly disappointed?
(I still want to have that list of notes, though)
Thank you for this post, Robin. Yes, I too see Burr’s point.* But I also am grateful to you, and to Scent and Chemistry, for providing me with the kind of information that is indeed meaningful to me as a lover and purchaser of fine fragrance.
I already have a cupboard filled with perfumes that delight me. Why would I want to purchase this one? Because I’ve read the book it’s named after and simply must have the matching scent to complete the experience? (Nope.) Because I trust that anything associated with the author’s name must be worth wearing? (Nope.) Because I have some strong emotional associations with Southern California? (Nope.) The evocation of rose and mint, and the more detailed noting of natural materials and aromachemicals by S&C, on the other hand, do pique my interest.
* However … as someone who currently obtains most of her information about new fragrances from the internet, I must say that Burr’s comparisons to painting and to music don’t hold up. I can see a painting (or a photo or reproduction of it) for myself and don’t need to be told what it looks like. I can hear a piece of music online for myself and don’t need a description of what it sounds like. But a fragrance? Until Smell-o-Vision comes to the internet, I have nothing but reviewers’ descriptions and my own knowledge and memory of scent to inform me about what a fragrance that is introduced to me online actually smells like.
Amen. I defy him to describe a painting, or a poster for that matter, without describing how it looks.
No, it isn’t necessary to natter on about the specific shades used, but there are many other visual descriptors; no so much for perfumes.
By all means, talk about the mood you meant to invoke, but how do you presume to know what invokes my own moods and memories? I may have been beaten within an inch of my life in a garden full of basil and mint by a crazed old aunt who wore rose fragrances exclusively. Quite a different mood will be invoked for me.
Or perhaps I need to avoid basil due to allergies or some such thing, seriously, I can’t believe mentioning notes is such a declasse thing in his mind.
Lol, Scentalicious–you’re on fire tonight!
If you go read Burr’s reviews at NYT, he talks about “notes” quite a bit. He just doesn’t rehash the list of notes provided from the PR. This is Burr on Britney Midnight Fantasy (also by Caroline Sabas):
“Sabas has taken ethyl maltol and mounted it like a jewel in an olfactory skein of sugary strawberry, raspberry and mango synthetics. It’s a dentist’s nightmare and a sensorial dream; the stuff explodes delightfully off the skin.”
But, of course, this is a quite different way of using the notes as part of the description, rather than simply running off a note list, which in isolation, really means nothing.
And if you pick up a copy of Vogue, and read about Tom Ford’s latest release, that’s pretty much what you’ll get – the notes list put together for release by the PR team at Estee Lauder.
Yes, it always surprises me that people seem to think these lists are comprehensive, or even accurate. I have the same problem with the current hysterical demands for ingredient lists for skincare products. Unless you are a cosmetic chemist and/or have access to the product formula, an inci list will tell you very little.
But they do, even perfumistas. I can’t tell you how many times people here say things like, good, there’s no musk, because it isn’t listed in the notes.
I suppose if the only reason I wore perfume was how much I liked the scent, then Burr’s point would be more applicable… but perfume for me is about the bottle, who recommended it or sent it to me, when I smelled something like it, what I was told were the notes, what I thought when I first sprayed, what happened to me when I wore it…. and when I anticipate trying a new perfume (new to me) I think about the house that made it, the perfumer if I know who it is, who told me they loved it (or hated it), and, and, and the notes in it. From what I could glean from folks who had smelled YOU, was that is is a green, herby, aquatic scent… hmmm… interesting… want to know more. Now, will I like it???? That will have to wait until I sniff it.
Ah, yes, then there’s all that 🙂
Here here, Robin! Excellent article! Really well written. Plus I agree with you.
As for You…it smells good based on the sample vial I tested. I suspect it smells even better sprayed. But like you I didn’t get the foreshadowing “dopamine rush”.
And I was spraying, not dabbing. It does make a difference.
Great post, and I loved reading everyone’s persectives. I find myself intrigued by Burr’s projects intellectually, and I myself enjoy random blind sampling. Chances are I’ve already read at least one review, or am familiar with the perfumer or the house or all of the above and that’s why I have a sample. I know how susceptible to influence I am, so eliminating that prior to sniffing works well for me. I’m no longer focused primarily on what I might want to buy, but just enjoying the experience of the scent itself, or not as the case may be. The goal of acquiring versus experiencing changes the dynamic for sure. I will leave the conundrum of how that works in retail to those who are actively involved, and as a consumer, I’m in full support of listing notes and detailed reviews. I’m just not necessarily solely a consumer. 😉
Nicely put and I find their is a kind of unburdening when just sniffing to sniff rather than to acquire. Next time I go to Macy’s and they start pushing agressive sales tactics maybe I’ll say ” Thank you, but I’m just having an experience today” ????
LOVE this, and am stealing it!
I’m not really much of a consumer in that sense either, since I don’t buy much these days. But I would say my attitude is still that of a consumer, and even if something is priced out of my reach, my basic question is always “is this something I would want to have in my collection”.
Very stimulating, thought provoking read! And CB really seems to push some buttons! I honestly had no idea. I actually find him kind of entertaining and do understand the point he’s trying to make.
I agree that notes do play a role in creating an impulse to make a choice about what to try in a sea of options. But there are an inordinate number of times that despite the promising odds based on notes, I’m totally disappointed. I actually like sniffing things blind without any expectations and just having a gut experience. The only time I do that is when I’m out sniffing and try things I’ve never heard of or read about.
Which is what happened with YOU. My reaction was “Salad!” It was nice and refreshing but didn’t light my fire and I have Herba Fresca already, which doesn’t move me either but it’s a functional cooler when it’s sweltering.
Salad or mojito are the top food choices so far 🙂
I think it is a function of the “too many launches” (+ “too many crappy scents”) thing that I used to love going to stores and sniffing scents I knew nothing about, and now it seems like a chore.
I find him entertaining as well, and appreciate anyone making a contribution to perfume appreciation. I saw some kind of documentary or tv show (I have no idea what it was) that he appeared in. He sprayed perfume on his knee to test it because that was his only skin space left. How you gonna not love that?
I also sense that his exasperation is with the PR machines and Scent Industry, which is, of course, something all of us have griped about at some point.
Besides which, Los Angeles mainly smells of diesel, food trucks, and fake designer handbags, with a little petrichor now and then, with night blooming jasmine and ocean tang coming on as evening falls.
*That’s* a compelling note list.
I’ve always been struck how everything is so bright and synthetic during the day, but as darkness falls, things seem to get more “real”
And I love the mix of jasmine and diesel that you sometimes get at night as you’re coming up on LAX once you’ve passed the Getty.
Ha! But I don’t think it was meant to capture the smell of LA, more like meant to fit things about this character who lives in LA. And I did not read the book so I can’t say if I think it does or not 🙂
You’re right and I need to let it go!
I’m just so taken back by this, because I am familiar with is reviews and I know he mentions notes… and a fine job he does with it, though I seldom get what he gets, and no surprise there, as he is the expert.
You’ve been kind and patient with my silliness, thank you.
He said “The only way to talk intelligently about a work of art is as a whole and contextualized in schools, aesthetic styles, and technical mastery or lack thereof.” Hold, on … I see a urinal that needs signing.
Ha!
lulz
As a scientist who loved chemistry, I’d argue that fragrance is neither art nor craft but a science, or engineering (chemical engineering, to be precise), but of course, some of the most significant scientific breakthroughs have been made thanks to breathtakingly elegant–dare I say artistic–experiments, and we describe engineering achievements as artistic all the time (think cathedrals, chateaus, temples, and bridges).
The delineations are completely arbitrary, but I’m a biologist, so that doesn’t bother me one whit.
Robin, your thoughts on notes are fantastic, and as a fellow hobbyist I feel absolutely the same way that you do. I also find note lists useful because I’ve got a couple of “death notes” that smell horrible on me no matter what, and you bet I want to know if they’re in a fragrance. Whatever “red musk” is, on me it’s rancid, so I’d love to have information that helps me avoid it.
Also, I’ve got a beef with Burr’s comment that describing notes in a perfume is akin to saying a painting has red or blue because I don’t think perfume is akin to painting at all. Perfume is a wearable art vs a decorative art. If you’re creating art to be worn on the human body the way you approach it is totally different from the way you approach art that hangs on a wall. The art/craft of perfume would be way better compared, imho, to the art/craft of making clothing, and anyone who tells me I’m missing the point for wanting to know if a dress is made of cotton or linen or rayon or polyester is going to watch my eyes roll so far back into my head that they’ll probably wonder if I’m about to pass out.
Yeah, that’s the real problem if you have a death note — who knows what aromachemical(s) got described as “red musk” in a list of notes, and who knows if next time you see it, it will be the same aromachemical — or ANY aromachemical. There are no laws or rules saying that lists of notes have to bear any relationship whatsoever to what’s in the scent.
This is why I object to calling lists of notes “ingredients”. They’re not the same thing at all.
Great essay and comments!
There is something about Burr that rubs me the wrong way, however much I appreciate his enthusiasm for perfume and his contributions. I mean, he refers to himself as a dick* about certain things, so I’m just agreeing with him. 😉
Nonetheless, I will try this fragrance in my continuing quest to find perfumes that I can stand to wear in DC’s horrible, unending summer heat and humidity.
*In this Perfume Shrine interview:
http://perfumeshrine.blogspot.com/2017/03/interview-chandler-burr-for-etat-libre.html
Yes — we used to be cooler and less humid in the summer than DC, now, not so much. Pretty soon the entire East Coast will need that perfume.
Just came by to say this was such a brilliant post Robin. This is why I visit NST daily. Keep up the good work!
Minty, woody, shiso-leaved rose sounds interesting to me.
Thank you! And do give it a shot.
I like Burr’s writing a lot, but find I almost never agree with him (including about notes in this case). I love you, of course, and generally agree with you and then I was getting into all the blabbety-blah from Scent and Chemistry and suddenly there it was: an “Eau Radieuse” mention! I will try this. Want. Sample. My needs have gotten simpler over the years, even though I can spout a lot of blabbety-blah. 😉
Ha — I thought about you when I saw that! Probably somewhere they have a full review of ER.
I don’t know why this annoyed me so much. Burr is coming across a bit elitist in my opinion. His entire book (The perfect scent) talks about notes in perfume. Now that more people are comfortable talking about notes, aroma chemicals, it’s considered tacky? I think NOT listing notes is a gimmick. Maybe we’ve gone bit too far with over-listing notes but I’d still like some idea if this fragrance smells like Jasmine or leather. Is it woody or powdery, etc. Sorry Burr, but get over yourself.
I think people get annoyed because he makes such definitive statements.
True.
As it happens, I am wearing a minty rose today, Strange Invisible Perfumes Black Rosette, and as it happens, I previously did not even consider ever testing it because I read the list of notes which had spearmint in it, and I always hated all kinds of mint. I got a sample by chance, fell in love with what I now think as freshly herbal minty leather rose, and since then, have been careful to treat list of notes as a very general, point of interest detail that adds to my decision to sample a perfume.
Writing off list of notes entirely seems too gimmicky, although I liked the whole Untitled exercise a lot, as a concept. Treating list of notes as some sort of selling point, especially in context of LVHM “field of rose” junkets and infamous “finest bergamot from Calabria” qualifiers, that is silly, indeed.
I also figured out that spearmint is nice, peppermint is evil. Wintergreen is the worst, though it is not even technically a mint.
Oh, Black Rosette — I liked that one and literally forgot it was minty. I have to go look up my testing notes now.
Goodness, 106 comments! That’s this weekend’s reading sorted for me. 🙂
Brava, Robin, for saying what many of us are thinking about the fragrance art/craft/industry. There’s so much, it’s hilarious, an utter embarrassment of consumer riches. I want to look away sometimes, but, um, fomo. The struggle is real.
When I read the “You is probably not for you” comment from Mr. Burr I thought, “ha! cheeky” but not necessarily in a condescending way. More as a reminder to rely on personal experience before the analysis of someone else.
Sometimes it is wonderful to simply engage with something new or unfamiliar (music, art, food, a place, a book, anything really) and to partake without the background details, or any notion really, of what went into the creation or why.
But, full disclosure, I read the book because of the perfume. I want to smell the perfume because of the book. Will I ever smell it? Who knows? I’m not worried either way.
You really should. It’s lovely. I bought a bottle as soon as it became available and don’t regret it one bit – I don’t get any rose, however. The floral element seems to be something more radiant, to me…Cyclamen?
After reading the Scent & Chemistry piece, I decided that indeed it smelled also like muguet — but in a million years I would not have noticed it if I hadn’t read their piece.
Fascinating. I’m an armchair chemistry nerd so will follow Scent & Chemistry with great interest. The mention of a muguet/Nivea-type accord in “You” pleasantly surprises me. I absolutely adore the smell of Nivea, and the idea of it suits Anne, the main character from the book.
I hope “You” will be around long enough for me to get a sniff. I’m tenuously holding on to a no-new-bottles pledge at the moment as my son goes to college soon. It’s easy to think of that cute 30 ml bottle as a large sample size. Such fun. But for the moment I shall resist.
My son starts college this fall due — first tuition payment due next month! So I know that feeling 🙂
That adorable little 30 ml bottle of “You” is tempting, and I love floral scents. I’m definitely interested, so there’s a good chance I will seek out a sniff someday. 🙂
What’s up with the 30 ml bottle, that sure looks nice. I don’t see any perfume, not even this one with the 30 ml option on the official ELDO website…
Sephora in the US has them, and I just realized they also have a 7.5 ml travel spray so thanks for making me check!
Oh, and Bloomies has them too, and in a few scents that aren’t in small size at Sephora.
So are they like a limited edition? I thought the 30 ml bottles are newly introduced and I would find them on their website and maybe decide on a bottle of Rien as 50 or 100 ml is too much 🙂
I don’t know if they’re LE — all I can tell you is that Sephora especially has pushed for smaller sizes, and they carry small sizes in a number of brands that you can’t find anywhere else.
Late to this party but I’ve been waiting for this discussion! Agree with everyone, basically, that while notes aren’t everything leaving them out entirely is silly. Without notes, I find, reviewers end up spilling a lot of words guessing what the notes are, which to me is pretty boring. I’d much rather read a review of the kind Robin describes, where the critic tells you how the notes are actually played.
Funnily enough, mint and rose are both notes I normally avoid, but I still want to try You just because I love and miss Chandler Burr’s writing. On the off chance it works for me I’d like to have a little piece of him on my shelf. What concerns me more though are reviews I’ve read suggesting it fades into a white musk. Maybe that is perfume as art, if you’re invoking a character who wears cold cream and clean linen (I gather — I haven’t read the book), but it’s not art I’m interested in wearing.
Unless you hate the smell of shiso in fragrance, I’d say do go ahead and try it anyway. The shiso is arguably the most noticeable note. Even then, I don’t think most people will smell it and say, oh, shiso!
To me, this is not a laundry musk, but it is clean.